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Hi Deborah – Our Harrell research team studied this family several years ago, thinking there may be a link to one of the Harrell Collaborative 14 Families. No such link could be confirmed because we could not find a male Harrell from this line who has taken the Y-DNA test. However, there have been non-male Harrell descendants, such as yourself, who have DNA results suggesting George W. Harrell may relate in some way to Jacob Harrell/Martha Calfee. So as not to take considerable Collaborative space at this time discussing this family in detail, please email me at tbar@srv.net and we can exchange info. Bill Thielbahr
I am Bill Thielbahr, one of the contributors to the Harrell Collaborative (the 14 Families). I have spent a lot of time studying John David Harrell 1763 and his children because they lived in many of the same areas as the Harrells who are part of the 14 Families. I tried several times to find a male descendent of John David’s family to take the Y-DNA test and I failed. I have evidence that this John David Harrell 1763 is not genetically connected to the 14 Harrell families listed in the Harrell Collaborative – I don’t have a Y-DNA profile of John David but I know of a (female) descendent of him whom I know is related to another Harrell who has a Y-DNA profile; this profile shows John David Harrell as not being genetically connected to the 14 Harrell families studied in the Harrell Collaborative. I would like to discuss this further with you but don’t want to engage in a lengthy discussion on the Harrell Collaborative. Please email me at tbar@srv.net . Bill Thielbahr
I apologize for not responding sooner but I could not get ready access to a computer until recently. Your posting adds more smoke to this mystery of whether Rebecca Herald Damron is related to EKA Reuben Harrell through Reuben’s son William Harrell. Your mention of “hints” that Rebecca’s mother is Patsy Ratcliff certainly tightens the possible bond to William Harrell since Patsy Ratcliff is thought to be William’s second wife. And we do know that some of Reuben’s relatives did live in Pulaski Co., VA, but to my knowledge they did not include his son William Harrell. Unless more information can be found through your sources, DNA matching would seem to be the best chance of proving a bond. You will need to find a male Herald descendant of William Herald (assumed father of Rebecca) who would agree to take the DNA test. FamilyTreeDNA is the company doing most of the Harrell DNA testing and thus far there is over 150 Harrell DNA donors. Knowing the DNA profile of this William Herald descendant will tell us if William Herald is blood related to Reuben Harrell (unless an adoption or illicit relationships took place). As mentioned in the narrative above, a person claiming to be a descendant of William Herald did take the DNA test and his DNA profile did not match the profile of Reuben Harrell’s descendants. A second DNA profile from another of William Herald’s male descendants would hopefully confirm that William Herald is not blood related to Reuben Harrell. Please email me at tbar@srv.net if you need further info.
Hi Cathie – I have more info re James Harrell but can’t send it now (other duties are required). But, my colleague Hazel has followed your postings and has the following question for you starting with a statement you made in your last posting:
“I pursued the DNA to determine my late Grandfather Merton Harrell’s father. Although it was on the birth certificate, his first name must be a nickname.”
Hazel’s question is:
Would you please ask Cathie the name listed on the birth certificate. I have Merton’s father as William Alonzo “Lou/Lon” Alderfer 1879. I have Merton’s mother as Clara Ruth Harrell 1886.
I await your response. Bill
Hello Cathie – My colleague found the document wherein James Herral deeds his slaves to daughter Lear Herral Gibbs and to his granddaughters Nancy and Margaret, heirs of James Herral Junior. This James Herral b. abt 1762 VA, d. abt 1836 Daviess Co., KY is son of Moses Harrell (s/o Richard Harrell 1700) and married Elizabeth Crume. This James Herral 1762 had a son James D. Harrell b. abt 1784 VA, d. bef 1831 Nelson Co., KY who is the father of Margaret and Nancy. Still no answer as to the father of your Phillip Harrell.
About your father taking the DNA test. I hope he is taking the test through FamilyTreeDNA as they have the largest databank of Harrell DNA donors. I also hope he requested (paid for) at least 37 DNA markers. I am one of the co-administrators of this Harrell DNA databank if you need further info. Bill Thielbahr
Cathie – Very interesting info you provided. First off, I have read all of the Crume 3 generations and thought the part about Elizabeth Crume and James Herrell included a variety of James Harrell/Herrell individuals that the author clearly didn’t understand. There were more than 1 James Harrells living in Nelson Co.: (1) James Harrell b. probably in the 1730s or early 1740s, the s/o Richard Harrell b. abt 1700 (you cite 1765 which reflects an earlier Richard Harrell) who came to Nelson around 1780 (I have his land warrant); (2) James Jr. whom we can’t prove might be the son of James Harrell Sr. (s/o Richard 1700); (3) James Harrell, the son of William b. in the 1730s in Frederick/Augusta Co., VA who is s/o Richard 1700; and (4) James Harell b. 1762 who is son of Moses who is s/o Richard 1700. I also have the tax lists and census info from early KY.
I see where you are convinced that James Harrell b. 1747 in Nansemond came to Nelson Co. Putting aside my thinking that this Nansemond connection could not have happened, I am interested in why you think this James Harrell was b. 1747 – this is very important in narrowing the choices of who this James Harrell might link to.
You have included info I had not known about: “In 1831 a James Harral of Nelson County deeded Negro children named Jason and Hanny to his daughter Leer Gibbs of Davis Co., KY. He also deeded 3 Negroes Mary, Margaret and Elizabeth to his granddaughters Nancy and Margaret Harral heirs of James Herral Jr., deceased of Shelby Co., KY.” I don’t know, at this time, which James Herral Jr. this is.
When you say “I think there is a possibility that the above couple might be the father of Phillip Harrell b. 1787” – I think you mean the “couple” enumerated in the 1810/1820 Nelson census – is this correct?
You explain “the relationship between ‘James Harrell b. 1747 and Chester Harrell son of William Harrell b. 1728 and married Susannah Chester’. You believe James and William Harrell are brothers and sons of Richard Harrell Jr. b. 1675. I didn’t understand your reference to “On 23 December 1749 is present.” – who was present for what? The James Harrell you reference as b. 1747 could not be the son of Richard because all 6 sons of Richard were “of age” by 1758 when Richard divided his property among his 6 sons. Not being sure of the birth of this James Harrell is understood because it takes a deep understanding of Richard Harrell b. abt 1700 and his sons which most people don’t invest in. You are correct in having James as a brother to William who did marry Susannah Chester in about 1750, before William and his brothers James and Moses left for KY around 1780.
So as I understand what your distant cousin believed, the father to your Phillip Harrell b. 1787 is probably James Harrell s/o Richard Harrell (you say b. 1765) of Frederick/Augusta Co. Based on records of Augusta/Frederick Co., VA, we believe most of the 6 sons of Richard Harrell were born in the 1730s and if James was born in this timeframe it is possible he could have had a son Phillip b. 1787 but not highly probable. It seems more probable that perhaps James’ son James Jr. could be the father of Phillip 1787. Then, again, this James could be s/o William; this James born abt 1752 and died maybe Nelson Co. at date unknown. Then, again, this James could be s/o Moses (who is s/o Richard) who was b. abt 1762 and died about 1836 in Daviess Co., KY and married Eliz Crume (and we think started having children around 1784).
This is the difficulty I, and others face, when trying to separate the different James Harrells. There is a story you might recall about a Rev War James Harrell who obtained 200 acres of land in Nelson Co. for his service. Some think this Rev War soldier came from Nansemond – but the supporting evidence is missing. Yes, there was a Rev. War soldier named James Harrell and yes, there was a James Harrell from Nansemond, and yes, there was 200 acres given to a Rev. War soldier James Harrell, but some connect the dots in the wrong way. I have studied this Rev War soldier and the 200 acres and I’m convinced he was not from Nansemond (Hellyn Carrier, dec’d, did research on the Harrells of this area and it was her (incorrect) opinion that this James came from Nansemond – that is probably where your distant cousin developed his thinking). The 200 acres happens to be located near where William Harrell (s/o Richard) lived in Nelson Co. and was later traded for land in OH – this William Harrell owned over 1000 acres.
For your information, before you responded to our Harrell Collaboration, it was our wild speculation that the father of Philllip, and a few other Harrells, was a James Harrell. We just don’t know which James Harrell he is.
You have given me new info to study: In 1831 James Herral of Nelson deeded slaves to his daughter Lear Gibbs of Daviess Co., KY and also deeded slaves to his granddaughters Nancy and Margaret Herral, heirs of James Herral Jr. dec’d of Shelby Co. I need to identify who this James Herral is. Many thanks for this information. – Bill Thielbahr
Hi Cathie – I am Bill Thielbahr and helped put together the 14 Harrell family piece including Family #10. As my discussion about Family #10 states, this particular group of Harrells living in Butler Co., OH in the 1805-1815 timeframe has puzzled us for a long time. We know that in this group of Harrells, Chester Harrell is directly related (DNA match) to my Harrell line. I do not know how Phillip, Nancy Jane, Jesse, Gabriel, and William are linked. The name “Phillip” is rarely seen in my Harrell line, Gabriel is also not seen, Jesse is found occasionally, and Nancy and William are common. From the description of the 14 families, you will only see Phillip in Family #10 and Family #12 and we don’t know how they are linked.
My long-time genealogy colleague has put together a list of children of your Phillip Harrell who married Catherine Reading: (1) James H. Harrell b. 1814 Butler Co. d. bef 1870 Decatur Co., IN; (2) William Harrell b. 1815 Dearbon Co., d. bef 1880 Decatur Co.; (3) Nancy Harrell b. 1819 Dearborn Co.; (4) Jesse Ray Harrell b. 1822 probably Decatur Co., d. bef 1860 IN; (5) Sarah A. Harrell b. 1823 IN; (6) Hannah Harrell b. 1825 Dearborn or Decatur Co, m. W.W. McKay or John H. Patton; (7) Mary A. Harrell b. 1830 Decatur Co; (8) Catherine Harrell b. 1833, Decatur Co., m. Henry Patton; (9) Philip Marion Harrell, b. Feb 1836, Decatur Co. If any of this info is incorrect or incomplete, please let me know. I don’t know which branch of this family you descend from but I have been in contact with a descendant of Phillip Marion Harrell and he also does not know of Phillip’s siblings or parents.
You asked if the “M” in the EKA James M. Harrell could be “Marion”. It’s possible but because we have no credible source for this middle initial being “M”, we have since decided to completely remove his middle name and cite “James Harrell” as this EKA. If we obtain more info supporting a middle name, we will add it back in.
You have the same problem we have – we also don’t know Phillip’s parents and don’t know his siblings. Do you have any guesses as to who his siblings might be? Any of them? We have seen that often the Harrells travel together or ultimately live near each other and knowing what property they purchased helps identify relatives who may have lived next/near them. Do you have any info on where Phillip lived (specifically, deed descriptions) and who his neighbors were? Except for his first child, James H. Harrell, all children were born in either Dearborn or Decatur Co.
The naming of Harrell children often gives us clues as to close relatives. If we have his first child identified correctly, James H. Harrell, this usually reflects the father’s father. In this case we could speculate that Phillip’s father is James Harrell. You have speculated that Phillips father could be James Harrell 1747 Nansemond Co. d. 1817 Nelson Co. Over the last 15 years of doing Harrell research, along with others, we have determined that the large group of Harrells with roots in Nansemond Co., VA and neighboring Bertie Co., NC were never in contact with the smaller group of Northern VA Harrells (my Harrell line) – they didn’t live near each other and the DNA of both groups are different. Many Harrell researchers who have not studied these 2 groups of Harrells often mix them up and create a lot of misinformation. So, with this in mind, I don’t believe that Phillip’s father was from Nansemond, but he could be the “James” that died in Nelson Co. in 1817. Or, his father could be from Nansemond but never lived in Nelson – if this were the case, the Harrell DNA would be different than those of the 14 families. If you have the identity of this James who died in Nelson Co. in 1817, I would like to know it. There are many, many James Harrells who lived in Nelson Co. and its vicinity in this timeframe.
In our research of these Butler Co. Harrells, and other Harrells of Indiana, my colleague and I have speculated that there could be an unknown James Harrell, the father of many of these early Harrells in Butler Co., Decatur, Dearborn. Unfortunately, there are so many unknown early James Harrells, that we can’t identify him. It remains pure speculation.
I was thrilled to see you respond to this new Harrell Collaboration website. We have finished our 3 generations of Family #1 and nearly finished with Family #2. We are now working on Family #3. We want to limit our effort to just the first 3 generations of each Family EKA so as to get the info out as quickly as possible. We have more generations of info on each family and in time will add it to the Collaboration. Our focus is to try and find info that links these 14 families and anything you can provide will help.
Best Regards, Bill Thielbahr tbar@srv.net